A Brief Conversation with Robert Jay Lifton

Foehl:

You’ve written about the catastrophe of climate change. Can you tell us about that?

Lifton:

Catastrophes have always been with us. Wars, nuclear attacks, Auschwitz-style killing factories, earthquakes, droughts, uncontrollable fires, widespread flooding, mass extinctions, and now a worldwide lethal pandemic. I think there is much to learn by considering climate change, our collective denial and avoidance, in relation to our response to catastrophes. But climate change has been very hard to address. In addition to corporate-funded denialists, the gradual, incremental pace of this catastrophe leads to complacency that numbs many people to the urgency of our situation. On the other hand, when I write about The Climate Swerve , I do see a hopeful element. I talk about a shift in the zeitgeist, the collective consciousness certainly in Americans, over the past 15 or 20 years, a shift from a denial of the crisis to a recognition of climate threat. And this includes recognition of the necessary steps to mitigate it. This was clarified in the Paris Agreement. The difficulty is that we haven’t mounted the political will to act on the mind-set that recognizes the climate threat.

Foehl:

What interferes with having the political will to do something about it?

Lifton:

There are a number of things that interfere. I’ve shifted my terminology from denial to rejection because it’s not possible to completely deny the reality of global warming and climate change at this point in time. It’s all around us. But you can reject it because of political requirements. There is an unofficial subculture in our society that is righteous, belligerent, and conspiratorial, that has to reject it in order to sustain its own worldview, identity, and political position. Rejection takes shape rather than denial.

Foehl: