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In this interview, Jan Niemira talks with Daniel Shaw, author of Traumatic Narcissism: Relational Systems of Subjugation. Together they discuss themes addressed in the book including the development of the relational constellation that Shaw terms “traumatic narcissism” and his extension of Fairbairn’s concept of the moral defense. Also explored are the ways in which authoritarianism and subjugation are endemic to traumatic narcissism and can be witnessed in parent–child relationships, psychoanalytic training settings, and popular culture.