Chiarandini: Tell me about your position as dean of the Chicago Institute.
Schneider: Well, let me start with a brief history of the deanship itself: the first dean was Joan Fleming, appointed by then director Gerhard Piers, who took over from Alexander when the latter left Chicago. Next came Louis Shapiro, appointed by Dr. Piers, and Henry Seidenberg, appointed during George Pollock's tenure as director. Finally, 1 was elected and appointed under Arnold Goldberg. I was recently reelected and reappointed for a second three-year term, under the current director, Thomas Pappadis.
All the former deans were highly esteemed for their contributions at the local and national levels. Furthermore, they all participated in psychoanalytic investigations: Shapiro on psychosomatic specificity; Fleming and Seidenberg on clinical supervision and on parent loss in childhood. Shapiro and Seidenberg are still active teachers at the Institute.
Chiarandini: Was it Alexanders idea to have a dean?
Schneider: Alexander wanted an institute with an academic orientation, a university atmosphere. As you know, when he first arrived in Chicago he was appointed to the first Chair of Psychoanalysis at the University of Chicago. So it was natural to appoint a dean, somebody who would be concerned exclusively with students. This position later became more complex, becoming what is now a dean of students and faculty.
Chiarandini: How does the fact that the dean is a training analyst, and, I believe, appointed, reconcile with the need to be identified by the candidates as somebody close to them? Isn't the dean seen as another establishment figure?
Schneider: Until 1990, when the local bylaws were changed, the dean was appointed by the director. But that year the Institute was reorganized, and since then the director and the dean are elected by the faculty. Usually we have two or three candidates for each position. In the case of the dean, it actually is the director who formally appoints the nominee who gets the majority of the votes. As for the candidates, it is true that the dean is part of the establishment, since he administers the Core Psychoanalytic Program, but I believe that the relationship with the students depends on the dean's style and personality. I have an excellent relationship with my students; they know they can come to me with any problems and readily do so.
Chiarandini: Is the appointment of the dean by the director the result of a compromise, a concession to a group that resisted change?
Schneider: Not really. The purpose was to maintain the authority of the director, a position that suffered considerable dilution of its powers as a result of the reorganization.
Chiarandini: Do the candidates have individual advisors?
Schneider: Yes, that was one of the changes I instituted. Not only do they have an advisor, but also an ombudsman. Each class is assigned a faculty member who works with the class as a whole and with each individual student throughout his or her training at the Institute. Two faculty members are appointed to function as ombudsmen, one assigned to classes one to five and another to the sixth-year class and beyond. The ombudsmen advocate for the students vis-à-vis the administration, though in fact they are rarely used.
Chiarandini: How long on average does it take for a candidate to graduate?
Schneider: Too long. In past years it took five to seven years after matriculation for a student to graduate. Presently it takes ten or more. The Chicago Institute has some of the most stringent requirements for graduation: four cases, one terminated (the child analysis program requires six, three adults and three children); a presentation to the Termination Seminar; an exam; and the writing of a paper. Still, we have had those requirements for many years and students used to graduate in far less time. I believe that students' financial demands and the longer wait for analytic patients are the main reasons for the delay. At present we are reviewing our requirements for graduation. We just reduced the minimum of cases to three for the adult program and five for child analysis. To help students finish their training requires an enormous amount of time and energy on the part of the faculty. I am happy to say that last June we graduated nine students, the largest number in the history of the Institute.
Chiarandini: My understanding is that, at least years ago, the institute at Chicago had a relationship with the community through a clinic, such that it was relatively easy for candidates to get cases. Has that changed?
Schneider: No, that is still going on, but the number of patients referred to the clinic has decreased dramatically over the last ten years. One factor is that other clinics in the community that used to refer to us now keep these patients for their own training programs. We are now going to evaluate and accept not only patients suitable for analysis, but also those who require psychotherapy. We hope that some patients in the latter group can become analytic patients. That is the way private practice has evolved, anyway. It is rare for patients to come for analysis from the beginning; they come just for. help. It is only later, after a period of time in psychotherapy, that they may begin an analysis.
Chiarandini: With the same person? In some places that would be discouraged. The patient would be referred elsewhere, for instance to another candidate. Although a place as traditional as the New York Psychoanalytic Institute has recently offered a Seminar on Conversion from Psychotherapy to Psychoanalysis.
Schneider: It is usually with the same person, although there may be exceptions. This is an area where we need more research. We have ourselves had a required seminar on conversion for several years now.
Chiarandini: Do you know of any correlation between the more stringent requirements for graduation and the rate of certification? Are Chicago graduates certified in greater numbers or at a faster rate?
Schneider: We have no data regarding the correlation. Chicago graduates have not been very enthusiastic about obtaining certification. The reasons are quite complex, and we reported some of our findings in the report of the Ad Hoc Committee on Evaluation of Certification.
Chiarandini: Tell me more about the deanship. Does the dean run the educational program? How does the function of the dean relate to that of the Education Committee? I assume there is such a committee, as at other institutes.
Schneider: The Institute has a variety of educational and service programs. The dean is administrator of the Psychoanalytic Education Program, which has about eighty faculty members and seventy students. He reports to the director and to the Psychoanalytic Education Council, a form of Education Committee. The Council, which meets twice a month, is the most important body of the Institute, and has the final say in educational and administrative matters. The chairs of the major education committees report directly to the Council. They sit on it, along with the dean, the chairs of some administrative committees like Budget and Geographic, and a number of faculty members elected at large by their colleagues. The director chairs the Council and reports to the Board of Trustees, which is composed of both lay and professional members, including one student. The director oversees the administrative
committees and leads and coordinates the work of the Division of Psychoanalytic Education and all other activities of the Institute in which the faculty is involved. Before the reorganization, all members of committees and their chairs were appointed by the director and the dean. Presently, a Committee on Committees, elected by the faculty, appoints the members, and each committee elects its own chair.
Chiarandini: And do members not on the faculty have any input?
Schneider: Not in the voting and appointment procedures, though they may be members of committees like Outreach or Postgraduate Education.
Chiarandini: And bow are faculty appointed?
Schneider: There are two ways: by appointment to teach through the Curriculum Committee, or through appointment as a training analyst. Our Training Analysis Committee reviews every analyst five years after graduation from the Institute. The candidate has to be certified by The American. After a procedure that includes two extended clinical evaluations, he or she may be recommended for training analysis status to the Education Council.
Chiarandini: Let's go back to the function of the dean.
Schneider: Well, besides administering the Psychoanalytic Education Program, the dean shares educational responsibilities in programs like the clinic, geographic training, the library, and so on, and sits in on all educational committees. In addition to teaching and supervision, there are monthly meetings with the president of the candidates association and meetings with individual candidates and any faculty members who wish to talk. Together with the director, the dean represents the Institute as a Fellow at the Board on Professional Standards. Then there are reports at the bimonthly meetings of the Education Council, monthly meetings of the faculty presided over by the dean, and meetings of the Board of Trustees.
Chiarandini: Can you run through the educational committees for us?
Schneider: Let's see. Admissions, Curriculum, Progression, Child and Adolescent Analysis, the Exam Committee, and the Ad Hoc Committee on Evaluation of Learning. Most of these meet twice a month, for an hour and a half. The dean is also an ex officio voting member of the Training Analysis Committee. Before the reorganization, the dean might also chair some of these committees, but no longer. He is an ex officio member of all of them, with voting privileges. And since committee chairs and members may rotate, often the dean is the only constant member of these committees.
Chiarandini: That seems daunting. How many hours of your week are involved in the deanship?
Schneider: I would estimate I spend eight hours in meetings alone. Other activities take twelve to fifteen hours a week. But both director and dean are remunerated positions.
Chiarandini: I want to go back to your emphasis on the academic environment. To me, an academic environment requires, first of all, that voice be given to many different schools of thought. How is that aspect manifest at Chicago?
Schneider: I think it has been particularly strong in the last ten years. The work of Heinz Kohut, although controversial nationally, and locally too, opened up the door to the acceptance of other schools of thought. Presently the curriculum includes all major trends in psychoanalysis, not only the traditional schools. Freudian analysis and ego psychology are taught, but there are also two yearlong courses in self psychology and object relations. I myself teach a quarter on Melanie Klein, Winnicott, and Fairbairn, followed by two more on clinical applications taught by Kenny Newman. And these are all required courses.
Chiarandini: You are particularly qualified to teach the authors you've mentioned, given your interests and background. Is there a consistent effort to find teachers who are particularly familiar with the authors they teach? Do you consider, for instance, inviting people from the outside to teach a particular author?
Schneider: We are lucky to have a large faculty, with a variety of clinical, research, and theoretical interests. It constitutes a rich pool from which we appoint teachers to all our courses. But we also regularly invite outside speakers, who come to our weekly research conferences, which are held every Wednesday, and in which students also participate. We are committed to teach ideas, no matter how controversial. We want the student to be educated in psychoanalysis, not to become enamored of one particular approach. We also seek a balance between teachers who are not strongly committed to any particular school and others who are. Currently, we are now putting the final touches to a revised curriculum that will go into effect the next academic year.
Chiarandini: On another topic, what is the relation of the Society to the Institute?
Schneider: The Society functions independently; they have their own scientific programs, though we often share out-of-town speakers. It has its own administrative structure, president, executive committee, and other committees. As you probably know, as a result of the recommendations of the University of Chicago study, the Society is undergoing a major restructuring.
Chiarandini: You share a building?
Schneider: Yes, and we also overlap in some areas of functioning. One example is in the different programs of community outreach. Still, I see the role of the Institute as primarily educational, whereas the Society's interests are professional practice and scientific exchange.
Chiarandini: So that issues such as health insurance will be taken up by the Society. How many members does the Society have?
Schneider: Approximately two hundred sixty, including candidates.
Chiarandini: I didn't know you included candidates.
Schneider: Yes, we do. They are the future of psychoanalysis. The American is recognizing that, too. We have a very active candidates association. I feel their activity contributes significantly to our revitalization.
Chiarandini: We have covered a lot of ground. Thank you for taking the time to speak with us.